“When We Stand Up, What They Gonna Do?” w/ Chris Lemons

Growers & Organizers Talk “Beyond SNAP”

Chris Lemons on Sapelo Island, GA in September 2025.

Welcome back to another episode of Beyond SNAP, a new series from the National Black Food and Justice Alliance. We created this in the face of the government’s refusal to fund food assistance back in November, and we’re using it to gather field lessons so organizers and growers can act now and contribute to our people’s long march toward self-determination.

In this episode, you’ll hear from Chris Lemons in Atlanta, a grower and organizer with Eco-PARADIGM and the farmer behind Gratitude Botanical Farm. Chris walks us through how he saw the SNAP scare play out on the ground, his wishes for more connective infrastructure in the Black food justice movement, and ways he believes we can get more people in our communities involved.

He makes the case for moving beyond short-term fixes and into real capacity: community storage and processing space, small mills and manufacturing, shared cold chain and coordinated labor support, and secure housing that lets people plan beyond tomorrow. He also calls HBCUs back into the center of community life and sketches a seed-to-stomach-to-compost economy rooted in care, skill, and cooperation. Let’s get into it.

TRANSCRIPT:

Chris: My name is Chris Lemons. I use he/him/his pronouns. Let's see, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia right now. It's home for me. Part of a collective called Eco-PARADIGM where we support farms, growers of all types around the South and nationally with different infrastructure labor support projects on farms.

I also have a farm that's going into year eight actually now. Can't believe I'm saying that! It’s called Gratitude Botanical Farm, on the west side of the city of Atlanta. I grow fruit, flowers, vegetables, herbs, and mushrooms. I do programming, education. The same for the collective with Eco-PARADIGM. It's a collective of farmers, from Kwanz Opp, Feed Ya People, G-4 Farms. Eco-PARADIGM is also a social enterprise organization founded by Charles Greenlea. But all that to say, that's a part of what connects me to food and the food system here in Atlanta, in Georgia. For myself, I've served as chairperson for the Fulton County Citizens Commission On the Environment, which is deeply connected to our food and environmental justice.

I founded the Entrenchment Creek Stewardship Society, Council, excuse me. So for those of you that may be familiar with Cop City and some of the happenings with that before, the outside agitators came in, the community had organized some things that they wanted to get done, and that was severely watered down through process. But, for me. I think that, just to, something my mom always says, in our community we always reactive as opposed to being proactive. And not to talk to myself at aggrandisement or anything, but that's just something I try to do is be one of the folks that be proactive.

NBFJA: Yeah. Yeah, man, I really appreciate you bringing up that idea of being proactive as opposed to being reactive. And I think. The big thing that I want to talk to you about today is like this whole SNAP halt that came with the federal government shutdown. States and the USDA, basically saying that they were not going to continue to fulfill the obligation that they had to ensure that millions of people around the country were able to eat. And I think this is a moment we found ourselves in. I'm coming from the consumer perspective 'cause I'm not a farmer or a gore or anything like that myself, but feeling very unprepared and I'm just like, we are just reacting to this moment. And so I guess from your perspective with the different organizations and properties that you’re a part of, what ways did you feel prepared for this moment? Were there things that you had done or been engaging in that made you feel like, okay, I might be able to do something like this or that? You know what I mean?

Chris Lemons and Eco-PARADIGM founder Charles Greelea on Sapelo Island, GA in September 2025.

Chris: For me, I grow and produce food, there's always access to something that I have out on the farm, whether it be herbs or, just native species of food that grows naturally out on the farm. So that's always something I can kinda lean my hat on, but it was also another opportunity where, you know. I could’ve put a few more rows of vegetables down in the ground before the, when we're in the freeze now, before the cold snap came, just to make sure we had something in place to be prepared.

This was something that folks was hinting at for a minute that was going to happen. And so for me, coming together with other folks, having little small buying groups, even if that's his family, where folks going in on bulk items or going out to a greenhouse and nursery and just ordering some extra plug trays of seeds and starts and getting those on down in the ground.

I think that's where my head has been at, 'cause at the end of the day, we know, I'm not gonna say we know, I know that food is a big part of the social controls that they use in our society.

NBFJA: And so with that, 'cause you were mentioning how like the news of this had been out there for a while. But I, and I guess from my observation, it seemed like they're seemed to be more attention put on it as we were getting closer to the beginning of the month of November. So from your perspective, like how did you observe panic starting to settle in as we were leaving October and going into November? Were there any signs or indicators that kind of showed that people may have been in distress or panicking about the situation a little bit?

Chris: Yeah, you definitely saw an uptick of folks in the grocery store. Because for a lot of people, those benefits, those had to be spent down by the first. You saw folks trying to stack up, and really fill those carts up.

Another thing you also saw and are still seeing it, is just an uptick of people at food banks or food pantries in the community. You also saw it to where like maybe a week or two weeks before, folks in neighborhoods and communities started organizing for like how can we collectively share food? That type deal. I don't know. Sitting on calls and in meetings with people, you definitely can feel and hear the stress. 'Cause here's the part, not everybody got the same 24 hours in a day. And, but it takes for people to make ends meet really, it really can be a lot. And so a lot of folks was not even able to really feel the stress.

You see what I'm saying? They might not have felt that till maybe a week before or maybe even just now starting to feel it. Because, they're so burdened by trying to, just get through the day, make their ends meet that you know what I'm saying? They can't panic, you just gotta do what you gotta do. You know what I mean? Maybe like overwhelmed or people feeling stressed, but I don't know, bro. You definitely see it. Just out in the community right now, but that's where we gotta stick together and help one another.

Chris Lemons with members of Eco-PARADIGM in Sapelo Island, GA in September 2025.

But then also, I don't know, man, we at a space where we gotta have a little bit more community accountability. Truthfully, we should have had a carte blanc a long time ago. But we have not gotten to that.

NBFJA: I want you to say a little bit more about that, because I feel like. You mentioned earlier the idea that we are reacting, like we just are trapped in these cycles of just reacting. Reacting, something happens. We try to put the fire out. Another thing happens, we try to fix the roof, fix the leak in the ceiling or whatever. But from your perspective, what kind of things do you think we could have or should be implementing as we move into the future to prepare ourselves better with these kinds of crises?

Chris: I mean for me I'll start off with this. A lot of urban farming or Black farming is predicated by like grants and nonprofits and funding. I think we at a space where the funders gotta hold themselves accountable. The organizers gotta hold themselves accountable. 'Cause are you really doing the work to vet where you putting these dollars at? Because the infrastructure and the things that we say we need, ain't it is not there. I'll give you a primary example in Atlanta, 'cause I don't want to, other people, other places gonna hear this. You, I don't want 'em think you just talking about any and everybody.

But in Atlanta, the urban growers, the growers in the city, even in the suburb areas, we don’t have like just a storage and processing center for us to make products and items and store things. I give you an example, so like really if you wanted to make a hot sauce or a jelly, you have to be in a certain facility or have a cottage garden license in order to make that and be able to distribute it to other states. So say for instance, like my three acre farm, I did all blueberries and I needed to have those blueberries processed. Technically, I'm not supposed to be doing it out the house for anything that I'm gonna be distributing or selling to another state, with the cottage garden license, yea.

But ultimately we’ve not built out the infrastructure and the systems that we need, you think about how many farmers that we know Black farmers are just getting their product or their crops out of the field to get it washed and processed and shipped. We’ve not build out systems for that.

We talk about co-ops and grocery stores. We didn't really build out systems for that. And really understanding, I am not, because again, I'm not trying to talk about everybody, but what it really takes for grocery to rotate. Say for instance, just in Atlanta. Atlanta's a 10 million metropolitan area, 10 million person metropolitan area. You think about the rotations and all the different things that you're gonna need to actually maintain a grocery store. We gotta built out those networks. For us, what we need to be doing is just more of that suring up the people that's already doing it, like authentically doing it. Making sure that they have the resources that they need to scale and provide jobs back out to the community. Making sure that we had networks and systems in place to support the farmers and the growers that are doing the work out there.

Putting a little bit more towards the labor support that's needed. And then understanding that within our food-fiber system, 'cause it's not just food, what are we doing to really close the loop on everything that we do and produce?

Love some of the brands that are out right now that are sourcing their cotton and other materials from 100% Black owned farms. That's important. We need more of that in our food system and in our fiber and fashion systems.

So that's what I would say. Then next thing is within our points of distribution, whether that be like a church, food bank, just within the neighborhood. Do we have the full rotations of what we need? Because like we always real quick to say, we need to farm. So that's food and that's at some level that can be meat, it could be vegetables, it could be fiber. But when you looking at things like maybe a processed good like grits, flour. We need mills and those types of things to be able to create and make those things. Or at the very least, just small mill houses and grind houses that are local. Yeah, we're gonna have to go back to more community and having things that are hyper local, but where we're producing some of those things for ourselves and making jobs for ourselves.

And then I'll end on this one. The biggest piece is just stable housing. Because if people had stable housing access to land that they knew that they could be on and you could just get up every day and you knew you had a roof over your head, regardless of what was happening, it would make it a lot easier.

Image courtesy of Gratitude Botanical Farm.

I don't say a lot easier, let me not say that. It'll provide a little bit more incentive for people to divest from the system and be a little bit more self-sufficient, a bit more community oriented because you knew your needs. We're still being met and yeah, I think that's something that's really important, especially when we talk about food sovereignty and having autonomy. How you gonna do that? We don't have access to land. And just stable housing 'cause that's again, why people can't feel the panic and the stress sometimes 'cause they too busy trying to make sure, they just make it through the day.

NBFJA: Yeah. Yeah, no, I, what I hear you describing is that it is gonna take more of an effort than just a few isolated farms here or there and everybody, sloganeering being like, “Oh, support Black businesses, buy Black-owned.” It's we gotta build out like a full sort of beginning to end. How do you get more people to get invested in the process of working on farms? You talked about that housing piece. I heard that loud and clear. Yeah, it's like a, it's a, it is a full 360 experience that you describing. It's more than just a few isolated things here or there. And I think, right now, in this moment, depending on what happens this week, because we genuinely don't know. What way this is gonna swing. But I can imagine that there's millions of people in position right now just waiting to hear the news that like “We back!” You know what I'm saying? Like “SNAP is back!” It's probably gonna be some celebrations and a lot of people like exhaling and being like, “We good. We just gotta, make sure we make it around to the next election!” What message would you give to people, even good intentioned, who feel that way? How would you warn people against that, relying on that in that sense?

Chris: I'm gonna keep it real with you man. We need to tap back into some of our fables and some of our proverbs that, we was raised up with, you from South Carolina, so I'm sure you went to church with grandma and them. And I'm sure you remember the story of the Grasshopper and the ant.

NBFJA: Yep.

Chris: We are at the space where like you really need to be more like that ant and a lot less like that grasshopper.

NBFJA: Give us some, give 'em some context of that story 'cause somebody might not know.

Chris: So for context they were out in nature, right? And there's a grasshopper and there's an ant. And the ant is always diligent towards building, making sure that it's prepared. And that its needs are going to be met when wintertime comes, right? 'Cause, it's cold, and they gonna freeze. They can't do nothing. So you gotta be shored up. And the entire time that winter is coming, the grasshopper is playing. It's on Instagram, it's on TikTok. “Aye, we got the stamps back, the stuff, the stupid stuff, you gonna see in a couple of weeks if they do turn it back on. But all that to say, the Grasshopper never prepared every time that the ant was doing work and, telling the grasshopper you need to heat and get prepared, didn't do it. And so ultimately winter came and, like folks do, “Oh man, hey bro, you got a coat somewhere, I can stay? Somewhere that you can, you help provision me for my needs even though my provision was not my priority.” And so all that to say is that the grasshopper ultimately had to suffer because of not being provisioned and not being prepared. It's similar to the story of the hen that baked the bread. If we just talking about stories and adages. For the entire time, the hen was like, can y'all want to help?

Y'all want to get in on this bread? Y'all want to thrash the wheat? You wanna plant some seeds, you want to mix it? Everybody was like, nah bro, I can't be bothered. Ultimately, when that bread came out the oven, everybody was like, let me get a piece. And she was like, nah not going. And so that's where we are.

That's where we are. You not gonna read no texts or anything regardless of your religion or this tells you everybody is gonna be saved. Not everybody with eyes and ears is gonna be able to hear and see on this one. And so that's the other part is just making sure that those that are like-minded are of that same orientation— how we organize together to work and shore this up and be able to take care of ourselves first. 'Cause you gotta have your oxygen mask on before you can help anybody else to take care of those things. So that's some of my thoughts on that particular subject.

NBFJA: I dig it. And then last question for you, so if you could just, close your eyes and imagine like your wildest dream, right? What does a fully self-determined food economy out where you are look like, paint that picture for me.

Chris: I think for me, my wildest dream is that it's no classism, it's no Black classism. Because I think that's one of the biggest things that ruins that. But ultimately, we have like Black-owned farms.

We have Black-owned facilities that allow us to process our goods and turn them into different products. And then we have packaging centers, and within our distribution networks, we also have stores that are providing jobs. In our distribution networks, we're helping our young people get CDLs.

We have security companies. And then that's the other part. It ain't just about “company, company, company.” We just have it where people can live, so it's like land where whether it’s in a trust, or in some type of foundation to where like people can just be there and have housing, stable housing, be in community live, have access to food, and then also have access to life.

'cause it's not just where oh, you gonna get up, be in this bland draft house. You still go to movies, still go to restaurants, still be able to live. Having it where we also build out Aa little bit better and more structured universities that are just playing, the game, actually advancing and doing what some of its founders and our ancestors really predecessors, 'cause ancestors are alive too. When you look at the definition of the word it's not just people that passed on. Yeah.

NBFJA: And when you say universities, you really talking about these HBCUs?

Chris: Yeah. Like our land [grant], our 1890s, those land grant institutions where they're more tapped back into community and providing a little bit more education to the actual conglomerate of the community, not just the students that are there. But you think about when you go to some HBCUs, and not to digress, but, some of the worst looking neighborhoods in the communities and in those cities. And that doesn't, it don't match with the education aspect of it. 'cause, education's supposed to permeate out to all people.

But in my wildest dreams, for people not having to hurt for food, not having to hurt for clothes and not having to diminish who they are as a person and can fully actualize. You know what I mean? So it's like you don't have to just grind it out 'cause you got kids and you trying to make these ends meet. Naw you can fully achieve your dreams and really we can close a loop on this system, not just to say that as a buzz word, but I mean that from like from seed to stomach to compost. What do, how do we fully make that work for ourselves? And then also just like the true matrix or the route tree almost of how this can go. 'cause everybody is not going to want to go to college. We do need mechanics and people that can do the repairs on machinery and equipment.

We do need seamstresses and people that can type the fiber and turn it into garments or, linens, those types of things. We do need manufacturers that know how to scale this up and, be able to produce enough jam for 25,000 jars. You see what I'm saying? That's what, that's where my head is at.

You down in New Orleans, think about it as Master P. For some of his clothing and things that he was sourcing it from 100% Black farms, or if he had leather goods, he was sourcing them from cattle ranches, Black owned cattle ranches. So I think for me, and my wildest dream is that within our food system is that we own it all and that we are able to provide that value back into our community, into our neighborhood.

And that we had also like the political wherewithal to where we sho shore that up too, 'cause a lot of this stuff we talking about welfare and SNAP and all that. But, ag is probably one of the larger outside of the military recipients of government subsidies, you know? Out of the individual folks too.

So a lot of times when you see on these rural farms and they getting these F-250s and new trucks and fixing up the house and all that stuff, it ain't necessarily just from a bank loan. A lot of that is predicated from USDA money that they get too, think about it.

NBFJA: So you're saying you— sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I think I was like, I was hint. 'cause you mentioned classism in that earlier, you saying, it's important for the farmers and the growers themselves to be politically oriented toward this understanding of community and survival, so that with the funding and the money and the opportunities that do exist, it's not just like taking and doing for self, but it's trying to figure out how to actually build out the community.Is that what you're saying?

Chris: Yeah. 'Cause everybody is not gonna be in, in just the agricultural part of it. You still got people that's gonna want to do music. You still got people that's gonna want to do art. You still got people that's gonna want to just do like the classical sciences.

It's just creating a real nation-building. I think that's more what I'm looking at is like, how can everybody within this benefit but then it also provides a stabilization for other parts of community and the nation to flourish. And then when we talk about just politically, it's just 'cause that's how we keep getting in the situation that we're in past a point is that there's a apathy that permeates, and it's not everybody, but there's a apathy that permeates.

And then it's also a part where people are so busy trying to just make their ends meet and they can't, so giving that stability and calming things down a little bit for that part of it to occur when folks can take care of themselves, do a little bit more of what they need to do for them. That's the important piece. It's enough land here where everybody got plenty of space to live. We talk about healthier foods, a lot of that is, is still steeped in racism. A lot of the Betty Crocker and processed foods that, that we eat really didn't. Come into place until Black women left their homes working for white people as domestics, that's where a lot of that instant food comes from. 'Cause they didn't have somebody to be in their kitchen working it for 'em. So it's so much within our system that needs to change, but also just providing that space for people to heal, breathe, and tap back into their humanity bro That ain't my wildest, wildest dream. Can't say all that. But that's some of the aspects of it is where like it's a, it is a true stability and that angst that has a lot of people's amygdala on fire where we in fight or flight mode all the time, they can stop and people can become a little bit better regulated so we can have that conversation about how to stand up. Because, folks always say you bring to the table, or we are the table that they play the game on. And so if you stand up now, what they going to do.

The South is the food basket for the country. They say California a lot, but the South produces a great deal of the food.

And when you think about that, 90% of what's grown in the South goes to other places. That's a lot. And so how do we have a little bit more hyper-local systems? How does that mid-level farm that's not corporately owned, how can that support like a little bit of a mom and pop store? How does that mom and pop store or a small grocery small retailer turn into a plaza that's providing jobs for folks in our communities?

Then also, how do. How do the farmers, 'cause that's how this worked. Back in the days for our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, we used to get together and work out a plan to come together. Having a little bit more cooperative networks. I think that's something that's big for me because I could talk about this all day, but like having them cooperative networks in place, learning when to go home.

Because a lot of times in our community we get to falling out and not working with each other 'cause of petty differences. And one thing I always say is that these folks hate each other. But they gonna make sure we don't get nothing, but they ass to kiss. When you think about the shutdown right now, you think about all them folks on the same page or they like each other or whatever?

No. But they gonna make sure that these group of people don't eat or have stability. Even when you look at why they did that's strategic, did it right up against the holiday season when you know people going, be trying to come together for food, looking for food, it's cold, so like growers couldn't adjust. All those types of things, man. So ultimately, what can we do to just talk to one another and build out some of the things to just help and push for a little bit better of divesting from this system.

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Learn more about Chris’ work with Eco-PARADIGM and Gratitude Botanical Farm.

Growers & Organizers Talk “Beyond SNAP”

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